Deep Seek of Wind + ENSO

This is a thread with DeepSeek, my prompts in italics bold. It was highly critical in ways that appeared very articulate, but it started to acquiesce when supplied with additional information. Not sure if this is due to a sliding or widening context window. In the past, one can try to argue about established physics with an LLM and it typically won’t budge.

The previous post was a discussion with the Gemini LLM and that seemed to be more agreeing and eventually convinced that a topological insulator approach seemed the best fit, which Deep Seek acknowledged as promising but did not use as a complete framing. Grade: Deep Seek – A for toughness, Gemini – B+ for diving into the data

Het Mehta on X: “most people think bigger context window = smarter model it doesn’t it just means more tokens to confuse it what’s the dumbest thing you’ve seen an llm forget mid-conversation?” / X

Wind drag and ENSO ocean dynamics

Is this realistic to think that the wind “drags the hot surface water from East Pacific and piles it up in the West Pacific” is that which causes the ENSO phenomenon? How much volume would this displace and is it even plausible? We know that can happen with a lake, yet that is a more confined basin.

This is an excellent and insightful question. You’ve zeroed in on a common oversimplification of ENSO (El Niño-Southern Oscillation) and are asking whether the “dragging and piling” mechanism is literally plausible across an entire ocean basin.

Let’s break it down.

The Short Answer

The idea that trade winds directly drag a significant volume of warm surface water from the East Pacific to the West Pacific, piling it up like water against one side of a bathtub, is an intuitive but physically incomplete picture of what causes ENSO. However, it captures a real, measurable effect — but the volume displaced is surprisingly small relative to the basin, and the “piling” is tiny compared to other forces. The real driver of ENSO is not just wind dragging water, but wind changing the slope of the thermocline (the boundary between warm surface water and cold deep water).

Let’s do the math and physics.

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Subjectivity and Perception

What really is the color GREEN? What does it mean to different people? We actually have no idea. Now, consider The Dress on its 10 year anniversary. One can either argue with others whether it is BLUE and BLACK or WHITE and GOLD, or objectively look at it’s composition from a technical standpoint. Below is a cross-section of the dress image using the online image-picker application showing a palette from selected pixels in the image

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Non-autonomous mathematical models

Non-autonomous mathematical formulations differ from autonomous ones in that their governing equations explicitly depend on time or another external variable. In natural systems, certain behaviors or processes are better modeled with non-autonomous formulations because they are influenced by external, time-dependent factors. Some examples of natural behaviors that qualify as non-autonomous include:

1. Seasonal Climate Variation:
Climate patterns, such as temperature changes or monsoon cycles, are influenced by external factors like the Earth’s orbit, axial tilt, and solar radiation, all of which vary over time. These changes make non-autonomous systems suitable for modeling long-term climate behavior.

2. Tidal Forces:
Tidal movements are driven by the gravitational pull of the Moon and the Sun, which vary as the positions of these celestial bodies change relative to Earth. Tidal equations thus have time-dependent forcing terms, making them non-autonomous.

3. Biological Rhythms:
Circadian rhythms in living organisms, which regulate daily cycles such as sleep and feeding, are influenced by the 24-hour light-dark cycle. These external light variations necessitate non-autonomous models.

4. Astronomical Geophysical Cycles:
Systems like the Chandler wobble (the irregular movement of Earth’s rotation axis) or the Quasi-Biennial Oscillation (QBO) in the equatorial stratosphere are influenced by periodic external factors, such as lunar cycles, making them non-autonomous. This also includes systems where lunar or Draconic cycles interact with annual cycles in non-linear ways, as explored in studies of Earth’s rotational dynamics.

5. Oceanographic Dynamical Phenomena:
Non-autonomous formulations are needed to model phenomena such as El Niño, which is influenced by complex interactions between atmospheric and oceanic conditions, themselves driven by seasonal and longer-term climatic variations.

6. Planetary Motion in a Varying Gravitational Field:
In astrophysical systems where a planet moves in the gravitational field of other bodies, such as a multi-body problem where external forces vary in time, non-autonomous dynamics become essential to account for these influences.

In contrast, autonomous systems are self-contained and their behavior depends only on their internal state variables, independent of any external time-varying influence. So that non-autonomous systems often better capture the complexity and variability introduced by time-dependent external factors.

However, many still want to find connections to autonomous formulations as they often coincide with resonant conditions or some natural damping rate.

Autonomous mathematical formulations are characterized by the fact that their governing equations do not explicitly depend on time or other external variables (they can be implicit via time derivatives though). These systems evolve based solely on their internal state variables. Many natural behaviors can be modeled using autonomous systems when external influences are either negligible or can be ignored. Here are some examples of natural behaviors that qualify as autonomous:

1. Radioactive Decay:
The decay of radioactive isotopes is governed by an internal process where the rate of decay depends only on the amount of the substance present at a given moment. The decay equation does not depend on time explicitly, making it an autonomous system.

2. Epidemiological Models (without external intervention):
Simplified models of disease spread, such as the SIR (Susceptible-Infected-Recovered) model, can be autonomous if no external factors (like seasonal effects or interventions) are considered. The evolution of the system depends only on the current number of susceptible, infected, and recovered individuals.

3. Predator-Prey Dynamics (Lotka-Volterra Model):
In the absence of external influences like seasonal changes or human intervention, predator-prey relationships, such as those described by the Lotka-Volterra equations, can be modeled as autonomous systems. The population changes depend solely on the interaction between predators and prey.

4. Chemical Reactions (closed systems):
In a closed system with no external input or removal of substances, the kinetics of chemical reactions can be modeled as autonomous. The rate of reaction depends only on the concentrations of reactants and products at any given time.

5. Newtonian Mechanics of Isolated Systems:
For an isolated mechanical system (e.g., a simple pendulum or two-body orbital system), the equations of motion can be autonomous. The system evolves based solely on the internal energy and forces within the system, without any external time-dependent influences. This relates to general oscillatory systems or harmonic oscillators — the simple harmonic oscillator (such as a mass on a spring) can be modeled autonomously if no external time-varying forces are acting on the system. The system’s behavior depends only on its position and velocity at any point in time. In the classical gravitational two-body problem in celestial mechanics, where two bodies interact only through their mutual gravitational attraction, the motion can be described autonomously. The positions and velocities of the two bodies determine their future motion, independent of any external time-dependent factors.

6. Thermodynamics of Isolated Systems:
In an isolated thermodynamic system, where there is no exchange of energy or matter with the surroundings, the internal state (e.g., pressure, temperature, volume) evolves autonomously based on the system’s internal conditions.

These examples illustrate systems where internal dynamics govern the evolution of the system, and time or external influences do not explicitly appear in the equations. However, in many real-world cases, external factors often come into play, making non-autonomous formulations more appropriate for capturing the full complexity of natural behaviors. A pendulum that is periodically synchronized as for example a child pushed on a swing set,  may be either formulated as a forced response in an autonomous set of equations or a non-autonomous description if the swing pusher carefully guides the cycle.

This is where the distinctions between autonomous vs non-autonomous and forced vs natural responses should be elaborated.

Understanding the Structure of the General Solution

In the case of a forced linear second-order dynamical system, the general solution to the system is typically the sum of two components:

Homogeneous (natural) solution: This is the solution to the system when there is no external forcing (i.e., the forcing term is zero).

Particular solution: This is the solution driven by the external forcing.

The homogeneous solution depends only on the internal properties of the system (such as natural frequency, damping, etc.) and is the solution when F(t) = 0.

The particular solution is directly related to the forcing function F(t), which can be time-dependent in the case of a non-autonomous system.

So let’s  consider the autonomous vs non-autonomous context.

Autonomous System: In an autonomous system, even though the system is subject to forcing, the forcing term does not explicitly depend on time but rather on internal state variables (such as x or dx/dt). Here, the particular solution would also be state-dependent and would not explicitly involve time as an independent variable.

Non-Autonomous System: In a non-autonomous system, the forcing term explicitly depends on time, such as F(t) = A sin(w t). This external time-dependent forcing drives the particular solution. While the homogeneous solution remains autonomous (since it’s based on the system’s internal properties), the particular solution reflects the non-autonomous nature of the system.

The key insight is that of the non-autonomous particular solution. Even though a system’s response can have components from the homogeneous solution (which are autonomous in nature), the particular solution in a non-autonomous system will be time-dependent and follow the time-dependence of the external forcing.

So consider the transition from autonomous to non-autonomous: when you introduce a periodic forcing function F(t), the particular solution becomes non-autonomous, even though the overall system response still includes the autonomous homogeneous solution. This results in the system being classified as non-autonomous, as the particular solution carries the time-dependent behavior, despite the autonomous structure of the homogeneous solution.

Summary: A forced response in a linear second-order system can include both autonomous and non-autonomous components. Even though the homogeneous solution remains autonomous, the particular solution introduces non-autonomous characteristics when the forcing term depends explicitly on time. In non-autonomous systems, the forcing introduces time dependence in the particular solution, making the overall system non-autonomous, even though part of the response (the homogeneous solution) is autonomous.

Unified Model of Earth Dynamics

Lorenz turned out to be a chaotic dead-end in understanding Earth dynamics. Instead we need a new unified model of solid liquid dynamics focusing on symmetries of the rotating earth, applying equations of solid bodies & fluid dynamics. See Mathematical Geoenergy (Wiley, 2018).

Should have made this diagram long ago: here’s the ChatGPT4 prompt with the diagramming plugin.

Graph

Ocean Tides and dLOD have always been well-understood, largely because the mapping to lunar+solar cycles is so obvious. And the latter is getting better all the time — consider recent hi-res LOD measurements with a ring laser interferometer, pulling in diurnal tidal cycles with much better temporal resolution.

That’s the first stage of unification (yellow boxes above) — next do the other boxes (CW, QBO, ENSO, AMO, PDO, etc) as described in the book and on this blog, while calibrating to tides and LOD, and that becomes a cross-validated unified model.


Annotated 10/11/2023

ontological classification according to wavenumber kx, ky, kz and fluid/solid.


Added so would not lose it — highlighted tidal factor is non-standard

Geophysically Informed Machine Learning for Improving Rapid Estimation and Short-Term Prediction of Earth Orientation Parameters

Australia Bushfire Causes

The Indian Ocean Dipole (IOD) and the El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO) are the primary natural climate variability drivers impacting Australia. Contrast that to AGW as the man-made driver. These two categories of natural and man-made causes form the basis of the bushfire attribution discussion, yet the naturally occurring dipoles are not well understood. Chapter 12 of the book describes a model for ENSO; and even though IOD has similarities to ENSO in terms of its dynamics (a CC of around 0.3) the fractional impact of the two indices is ultimately responsible for whether a temperature extreme will occur in a region such as Australia (not to mention other indices such as MJO and SAM).  

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